Innovation vs. Happiness: #Grindset or #Vanlife? Or perhaps both?

Finding the perfect balance between work and personal life is a universal challenge. Innovation vs. Happiness podcast tells you the stories of three professionals who moved to Espoo, Finland and learned how to thrive in both their career and personal life.

In this episode we will hear insights from our guest Michelle Ngan Lam, Senior Solution Consultant, ServiceNow. She will share her story on finding balance between ambition and personal time, and how the Finnish pace of life encourages reflection and deeper thinking with host Harri Paananen, Director, Economic Development, City of Espoo.

Did the podcast episode spark thoughts or questions? Join the conversation on social media with #InnovationVsHappiness.

Podcast on different platforms:

• Episode on Spotify(external link, opens in a new window)
• Episode on Apple Podcasts(external link, opens in a new window)
• Episode on SoundCloud(external link, opens in a new window)

Michelle: Ambition is the very strong design to get something, to achieve something and it's the same with happy, like people will decide for a happy life and they want to get more happier…more happiness. So then in this case, for me they are hand in hand.

Intro

Harri Paananen: Welcome to Innovation vs Happiness. My name is Harri Paananen and in this podcast I will be asking the question, is combining innovation and happiness possible? The world is full of people in an either-or situation. Either you climb the career ladder and have an impact but don't have time for anything else or you choose well-being and happiness, but sacrifice ambition.

Seems as though there is only #grindset or #VanLife, but nothing in between. But what if you want both? I wanted to interview people who have seemingly succeeded in the impossible.

Today we will be talking with Michelle Lam. She's a tech and innovation professional who works as a Senior Solution Consultant at ServiceNow. Michelle came to Finland from Vietnam for her studies at 19 years of age. Here, she has built a fulfilling career in digital strategy and transformation while living a life of balance.

Before inviting Michelle to the studio, we get to visit somewhere special. Let's follow Michelle and our reporter Mari to a place that has been meaningful for Michelle's career.

Mari Suonto: My name is Mari Suonto and I am with Michelle Lam here at Aalto Design Factory. Michelle, can you describe why this place is inspiring for you?

Michelle Lam: OK, yes. Hi Mari. So yeah, we are in Design Factory and then I have spent a lot of my time during my four years, 3-4 years in my study here. This place is as you can see here like with all the thing ongoing. So it's so different than the traditional, you know, university space and that just by entering here I can feel already the atmosphere of the creativity, activity, innovation type of atmosphere.

So it's really fun to spend time here, to study, to learn on the new stuff and then talking to different people. So that's why I think… you're talking to different people, learning these other things that inspire me.

Mari: So it's a space where designers and business thinkers and also engineers come together, right?

Michelle: Yes, yes.

Mari: And then what do you guys do here?

Michelle: Projects, mostly. Basically we would receive some kind of brief, a problem from

the company. So it's not only student but also the business would come here.

They provide us the… the brief of their current issue

or the topic that they have in mind that they

would like to have an innovative solution and they want

to see and hear opinion from an outsider, some fresh idea.

So then we would form a team together with student

from different background, we call that a multi-disciplinary

study, and then we solve that kind of brief together.

Mari: And do you apply the stuff that you learned about

innovation here at Design Factory in Otaniemi in your current work in innovation?

Michelle: Yes, quite a lot, actually.

Of course in my current work I cannot do things

physical, like paper and scissors or duct tape,

but then the… the thinking way and then also like

the… like how you can draw a process, how can

you discovery and validate with the customer.

There's a thing that I do every day because when

someone come to me asking a question like “hey Michelle,

we have that problem, can you help?” or

“we are looking into this, can you help?”

Then by default I would not just give

them the immediate answer but always have 1, 2, 3 discovery question

just to make sure that I understand them correctly.

So the mindset that I would not do anything purely

based on assumption, but I need to validate my option…

assumption, and make sure…  and then validate with the customer,

make sure that we align and then we are on

the same page and things like that.

And of course when there is problem I think it's

nicer, for me, that I usually don't feel too stressed because

I have seen all kind of problem and then all

we have problem [Tuntemato1] and one from the different domain

that I don't have any domain knowledge.

So when they ever… there's any issue or challenging at

work even if I don't know about that, but it's

just “OK, another set of problem.

I do not have a domain knowledge and I don't

have a solution”, but I know how… what to do

and then how to get a solution, or at least

like how to gain more insight and then… and then

continue my path.

Mari: So you learned a sort of process toward…

Michelle: Yes…

Mari: …innovation here.

Michelle: …a process, and then the… and the process, the mindset and then

the… the mentality.

So it's… actually it helps and I think it's we

were talking about the balancing like between innovation and happiness

on the balance.

So I think it's help because when I don't get

stressed for certain thing then I can easily have a

balanced life.

Mari: Exactly.

OK, so you learn to approach the unknown, here.

Michelle: Yes, yes, yes.

But we usually say that a very fancy word.

Remember when I… I heard the word the first time

also in Design Factory and were like what does it

mean? I need to Google.

I was like, “Michelle, how well are you handling… how

well can you handle ambiguity?”

And I was like, “What ambiguity?

What do you mean with that?”

And and yeah… but yeah, so like, you know, I

deem we learn how to handle ambiguity and then we

have very high tolerance with those ambiguity.

Mari: And that gives you balance?

Michelle: Yes.

Mari: In your work, in innovation?

Because I guess innovation is always ambiguous because you're

trying to do something new.

Michelle: Yes, yes. Exactly.

Mari: So you have to deal with ambiguity. That’s beautiful.

Michelle: But it's not only innovation, I think, when

you consider the normal life we are now.

Mari: Yeah.

Michelle: It's ambiguous.

Mari: It's ambiguous and very uncertain, Yes.

Michelle: Yes.

Mari: So here you learn an approach for that.

Michelle: Yes.

Mari: Beautiful.

Michelle: Yes, exactly.

Interlude.

Harri: That was the Design Factory at Alta University with Michelle

Lam and Mari Suonto.

Now back at the studio, I'm excited to invite Michelle

in to discuss innovation and happiness.

Welcome to the podcast Michelle.

Michelle: Hi, Harry, nice to meet you and thank you very

much for the introduction.

Harri: Thank you, Michelle. You work in tech.

It's an industry famous for its dynamic, pace driven people

on the ability to create innovation.

What do you think?

Can ambition get in the way of creating a happy

life?

Michelle: It's very interesting question and for me ambition and happy

they go together.

So there… there's no different, there's no conflict.

I think there's… I can find synergy between ambition and

happy life and then they compliment each other.

Well like, you see, like depends on how you define ambition but then

by googling that you can see like ambition is the

very strong design to get something, to achieve something.

And it's the same with happy, like people is designed

for happy life and want to get more happier… happiness.

So then in this case, for me, they are hand

in hand and ambition with my career, ambition with personal

growth and by trying myself and then developing myself forward

to my own ambition.

And then during the journey, whenever I achieve something small

or big, I feel happy.

So that's how it is for me. So, yeah.

Harri: That's fascinating, because now this is the third interviewer we're

doing in this miniseries, and you basically said almost the

same thing as the two previous persons.

Michelle: OK.

Harri: So clearly people who don't see a contradiction in

this theme seem to find the career opportunities here in Finland.

Well, you personally, you've known since a very young age

that you want to work in tech.

Michelle: Yes.

Harri: How did you come to this realization?

Michelle: Quite natural movement, I remember.

I think I was around nine years old at that

time.

Well, actually I think as a young kid I might

be a bit younger, when I was around seven,

I think that I would like to do marketing just

by watching some movies, some series.

And then the main scene… the main set of

the series was talking about people who working in agency

companies, so I like it.

But then when I was nine, I got my first

house with computer.

Well, if you consider for our current, the young generation

in our time now, it's pretty late.

I think nowadays people, kids, get touch with the computer

or tech like at two or three years old, but

then in Vietnam back then, in the 1979[Tuntemato2]  and, that’s it,

the first time I had, how to say like, in

elementary school and then we have the extra section for

a computer and then I managed to see the computer

the first time and then I learn a little bit.

Harri: Do you still remember the model, what that was?

Michelle: Well, I think at that time it's still like DOS.

Harri: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah

Harri: DOS base.

Michelle: Yeah, DOS base.

And then there was a local programming because the command

is in Vietnamese.

So basically it's like, I think it's basically using similar

to Pascal or very old style coding but you can

tell, type in your command and then the mouse cruiser

would do the drawing for you.

So for example if I can tell like the cruiser

to get the color red and then move straight for

five pixel or five or 10 unit then… then you

can start to draw a square, a triangle and then

you can fill in the color and then you can

decide.

So it's really nice to see that “oh I can

create something out of that”.

Then I went home and told my parent that I

would like to learn more computer.

Then they found a center like Extra… Extra Curriculum center

near in our neighborhood where I could… I… I went

there to learn and it's like office type of learning.

I learned the doors[Tuntemato3]  then some command and see and

then Microsoft Word, Excel, those like for office people.

But it's nice, and then I get… got to like it.

Harri: At nine years old?

Michelle: Yeah.

Harri: Wow.

Michelle: Before I graduate from my elementary school, I had the

certificate for Office people.

Like usually that would be something you can put to

CV when you want to apply for office job that,

you know… you had the Office… Microsoft Office-certificate.

Yeah, and then I start to learn a little bit

of programming and I like it.

I was not creative, I wasn't good at

crafting thing or drawing or writing,

myself. because whenever I draw I do some crafting,

the first version, as usual without practice, was ugly, but

with computer, when you manage to do that, you get

the exact right resolve as whoever said the adult can

do that.

So I like, I love it that way.

And yeah, and I think in my 10-11 years

old, I feel like I'm, I would like to be

involved more with tech and then work in tech, yeah.

Harri: Well, that's quite a head start you had…

Michelle: Yes.

Harri: …and clearly you're very driven and ambitious person.

Michelle: Yes.

Harri: Have there been times in your life when ambition and

happiness have been pulling in opposite directions?

Michelle: Yes, There was that time, I think, in Finland, basically.

Well I came to Finland in 2006 and then, well

I put it, when you… when I about to finish

my bachelor degree, so if we remember it was the last recession.

Harri: Yes.

Michelle: It wasn't good and specifically the, beside tech entrepreneurship startup is

something that I love to do as a young kid,

but in Finland at that time, the startup ecosystem was

not very well developed because people still talking about Nokia

ecosystem and those one.

And yeah, so initially and I feel like, I like…

I kind of like the country, but then I… I

will struggle to get a job that I want and

I might need to do some other job just for

earning a living.

And then… and then there's… and then yeah, in your

early 20s you would feel like how… how… how do

you want your life to be?

Because they're also OK.[Tuntemato4]

They start to have like, how we say, like challenging…

like… like paperwork, resident permit and then financial and then

income supporting those ones.

So Yep, then there… there was those moment I feel

like is kind of when things went in different direction

and I might need to choose. Yeah.

Harri: Well, despite these challenges you… you were able to grow

in your career, you were challenging yourself and… and… and

you found new roles.

How has living in Finland played a part in this?

And do you think things would have been different should

you have lived in Vietnam?

Mixhelle: I, after my bachelor, I decide to go back to

Vietnam for getting a job and then of course try

to get some more relevant experience.

And then… well, but only for half a year, more

than half a year,

then I… I returned Finland… to Finland for my master

degree.

So my experience with working in Vietnam is quite limited

to this time.

And then of course observation and talking to people, my

friends who working there, I think there's certain challenge, pros

and cons thing might be the same or different in

Vietnam, I don't know, I couldn't tell.

But the obviously for a native person in Vietnam with

the network and everything and with a degree from Finland.

I could get the first job easier but then at

the same time can I grow as how I want?

I'm not sure because there's all the challenging and then

social norm and standard of living and then how

people expect you to grow as an adult and… and

then maybe I would be pulling to those direction and

then I couldn't live the life that I… I like.

So and then in Finland I had more freedom to

choose in this way.

Of course coming with along with those freedom, does mean

I need to be proactive and do more work to

control my own decision.

Harri: So, so in a sense, you know, going to Vietnam

with your degree might have been the easy choice in

the in the short run, but you chose the hard

path because you saw that it led to more of

the things you want in life.

Michelle: Yes.

Harri: What about then, when you were already a seasoned professional?

Is there a moment that you could identify where you

feel you really had a positive impact?

Michelle: To the work?

Harri: Work, the world, whatever.

Like that you really felt, “Hey, Well, I did good there.”

Michelle: I… I think it's quite often I… I cannot tell

you a specific moment because, maybe not every day, but

every second day, every week.

I already feel it like that.

Harri: Wow.

Michelle. So then in this case, yeah, it's constantly happening in

my life. Can be big, can be small.

Sometimes it's just an impact to a colleague, sometimes it's

to a customer or to the company I'm working for

or and…then like to the community, in the society.

So yeah.

Harri: So it's a constant feeling.

Micelle: Yeah, it's a constant feeling.

Because if I don't feel that, I think if I

don't feel that for a month, I'll open up LinkedIn

and then looking for another job.

Harri: I understand, yeah. Well, good.

And probably good to hear for your current employer as well.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah.

Harri: Got to keep you challenged.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, actually I tell them and then they… they

like the idea. So actually they want to give me… yeah, yeah…

Harri: Excellent.

Well, hey, now it's time to move from the innovation

and impact part into the happiness.

So let's follow Michelle and Mari for a visit to

Michelle's happy place.

Mari: So Michelle, we have come to the sea front and

you have said that this is a place that represents

the kind of Finnish happiness for you.

So can you describe where we are and why this

is a happy place for you?

Michelle: Yeah, sure.

So, well, we are now in a corner a park

of the Espoo Ranta, so the the coastline of Espoo

and it's very close to the warter.

And then on the other side we have a nice

faulty cafe.

So that is the thing I'd really like to… that

Finland has it, because I like to be very close

to the water, the nature, and at the same time

I don't need to spend hours travelling on a day

trip for this kind of environment.

So now, well, it's oh, maybe now I'm here, enjoy

the nature like a bit of countryside feeling.

And then in the next hour I would be back

to the city with all the convenience services.

Mari: So the urban life and the nature are quite close

to each other here.

Michelle: Yes, I… they are, I would say mush.

Yeah, kind of mush.

And then you can have both within walking distance.

Mari: Exactly. So it makes it easier to access the sort of

quiet and the nature… nature.

Michelle: Yes, yes, very easy to access and then anybody can

access because it's public.

It's for public. So…as for me, I consider like

as a commoner… I can still access the

though[Tuntemato5]  comparing with back home in Asia, having this kind

of nature experience would require you to do a little

bit of extra preparation, like family trip, or you need

to be really rich with a lot of money for

spending time in a luxury cafe or private resource hotel.

Mari: So here it's more accessible to like the common people.

Michelle: Yes, anybody can… can have it. Anytime that you like.

Mari: Does this relate somehow to the general quality of life

in Finland that you've found?

Michelle: For sure it's strongly related to it.

So I think this is the principle of high quality

of life. that you can relax and then enjoy whatever

that you would like on the daily basic and you

don't need to wait for a long time, while prepare months for this.

Interlude.

Harri: You're listening to Innovation vs Happiness, and with me in

the studio, I have Michelle Lam, a tech professional.

Michelle just took us to the sea front with her.

Thank you for sharing that special place of yours, Michelle.

Michelle: Thank you.

Harri: You've said that in Finland you were able to have

your “Silicon Valley-dream”, but just happier.

What does that mean?

Michelle: Yes, “Silicon Valley-dream” was a dream I had in

my teenager time, like I explained

around 12/13 when I really feel like

I want to work in tech.

And then I think at that time Microsoft was a

giant that everybody know.

I may not know about any other company in the

Valley or in tech, like HP or Intel, IBM at

that time, but then I knew Microsoft.

I'm using a Windows.

Yeah, I was using a Windows.

So yeah, I… I… I feel like, OK, it's really

interesting.

And then I knew I started to do a little

research.

I knew about the Silicon Valley.

It was like a place for tech company, a place

where people innovate and create new tech.

And it's so fascinating for a kid like me and

I feel like I would like to be there or

to work in that place, in that casual[Tuntemato6]  company

in that environment. Yeah.

But then… and then even I study in those like

Ivy League school in the US, so then I could

grow my career and things like that.

Well, of course I… I didn't do my study in

the US, so I didn't officially work in Silicon Valley.

But then in Finland, I felt sometime those dreams coming

true not… indirectly somehow because when I study in Aalto the

program entrepreneurship has also collaboration with Stanford.

And then, well of course, we did have a professor from

the Stanford and then have certain simulation related to the

tech venture like how… how company, the founding team would

talk to the… the investors to… and then negotiate with

investor for those Siri, ABC funding.

And then I went to the program mechanic like ME310.

So basically it's an innovation program also have close very

close collaboration with Stanford.

I visit Stanford twice during that year and then I

did a lot of work in the Design Factory here

in Finland and then we had international partnership like university

during there.

And well that's where I learned that I don't need

to go to Stanford for having those study.

Aalto provide me much better facilities since, I was not

happy… I wasn't as… I was kind of shocked when

I visit Stanford and I'm like “Well yeah, they have

a bigger campus but then facilities for the student is

much less.”

We had much better situation in Finland and then the

school provides better support for our study and then for

our experiments and all the things and the best part

of that, like is free so… so yeah that's how it is.

And then… and then of course later on when I

start to… to work then I work in tech and

then I manage to visit like different conference, tech fair,

doing demo, speaking in public related to technology application, how

we can, how our products can support the client.

And then, yeah, it's exactly how it is in the

Valley for me.

Maybe a little smaller scale.

Harri: A bit.

Michelle: A bit, but I… I like it that way.

Harri: Yeah.

Michelle: Because imagine like if, well, if I… if I'm in

events with 10,000 people and in an event with 1000

people for a day, the amount of people I managed

to talk on that day is the same.

The the amount of hour is limited.

I cannot talk for, with more than 10 or 20

person.

And then the session, the agenda is quite the same.

Maybe it's just bigger in scale, but then for human

capacity to receive those information is quite the same.

So yeah, and then for some more Finland we have

slush.

It's already overwhelming for me.

I think the last time I was there, already a

few years ago with 14,000 people and I was like,

“I live in Finland too long enough.

This is too much for me.”

So yeah, so yeah.

And then… and then now I'm working in

ServiceNow is a big tech company for 500.

We do everything together and so in the corporate and

then yeah, I don't see anything different in this case.

So like in this, like the principle of my childhood

stream of working in tech, working in big company, working

with cutting edge technology, talking with the customer about some

innovation, how to create a new solution to solve certain

problem that they are having.

I got it all in Finland.

Harri: Well, I hear that… that you've really value this

balance between personal life and

and career ambition.

And seeing as… as you have this, also the Silicon

Valley experience and the Finnish experience.

Michelle: Very little of the

Silicon Valley experience, but yeah.

Harri: You got a taste.

Michelle: Yeah, I got a taste, yeah.

Harri: And… and of course your background in Vietnam.

What do you think that makes the Finnish work life

balance unique?

Michelle: Yeah. I,well… I guess it's because of the culture

and the way people living here in general.

I think it's quite obvious to say that life in

Finland is slower than the rest of the world is.

I… I… I don't mean anything bad here because well,

by living a little slower, but then the people enable

themselves and allow also the people around them to have

more time to think and then… before they react or

they speak something and then they have time to calm

down instead of like being pushed unwillingly into the constant

move.

Harri: There's more deliberation.

Michelle: Yeah.

Some… something like that, I think.

Yeah, because like in Vietnam for example, you need to

move a lot and then the traffic it just like

by sitting in the cafe looking out, you see a

lot of traffic and somehow it's triggered your… my mind that

I need to move and I constantly on the move.

But for what?

Nobody know.

Yes, because only for example, like if I'm working in

Vietnam, my customer might come to me and request like

I want this immediately.

No… no room for negotiation or even I can’t try

just ask like when you need it?

Is it urgent?

I don't care… people don't care whether it's urgent or not.

They just want it.

They don't want to wait.

They're willing to pay, but they are not willing to

wait.

And then here in Finland, well, if it's not… not

serious need, then it's just nice to have now.

Or we can have it by this deadline, then it's OK.

And then it's allow people more time to control their

life and then to arrange.

So determination.

You… you…

How shall I?

You have more power in your own

time management.

Harri: And there's more dialogue on the priorities, maybe.

Michelle: Yes, yes.

Harri: …In these collaborations.

Michelle: More dialogue on the priorities.

And at the same time is add more humanity into

the… the work.

So it's not only work because you can always share

like; you don't feel good today, you are under the

weather.

People understand that and sympathy.

And then you are allowed to take it easy or

not perform as your best.

In other country,

I kind of have a feeling that I'm not…

I don't have that luxury.

Harri: Right.

Michelle: Yeah.

Harri: Yeah, you cannot be vulnerable.

Michelle: No, no you can't.

Harri: Well, speaking of the community and the people around you,

you've spent now your entire adult life in Finland.

And of course, the social circle you form as a

young adult can contribute to your well-being and happiness for years.

What kind of community have you found here?

Michelle: My good friends in Finland now, I'm happy to say that I…

the… those good friends, I have known them for more

than 10 years which mean like I… I live in

a place, a country long enough to… to have this

kind of connection from student time international student association.

We volunteer together and then yeah, there's a mix of

Finn and International, not only from Vietnam or from Asia,

but from different part of the work… the world.

It is… It is nice because we kinda, how to say, we

share our experience, our challenge, but at the same time

we… we… we tell other the people, the… the story,

our story and background and culture.

So then we learn together.

I like it that way because I think, like if

I put myself in a community where there's only Finnish

people, I may be able to gain a lot of

insight from Finland, but I would feel lonely because I

kind of like the outsider, the different and then…

but then if I put myself only in the group of

Vietnamese, only international, which means we… we… we fail to

integrate with the Finnish life.

So I have that kind of community which is good.

And then also recently we have now the Vietnamese professional

in Finland.

So this is like the community for all the Vietnamese

student and coming expert workers who come to Finland to…

and then stay in the country to work and then

we share our experience and our practice and how to

integrate in Finland, together.

Harri: That's very valuable.

Michelle: It is because in… in the end I mean like

I have… I… I think I integrate quite well but

at some time there's still like the root, like your

root and then you feel like it's not that easy

for certain concern to share to other people because they

may not understand why you have that concern.

Harri: Sure.

Michelle: Yeah. Even can can be something very simple like “Our

parent is visiting Finland, what can we do?”

And the Vietnamese parents may have different demand than the

French parents visiting Finland or the American parents visiting Finland.

Or then if we have some issue with our parent

or family back home or our family in Finland and

then how to connect them.

So to people who from the same background, from the

same culture, they might understand that.

And sometimes to my Finnish friend they… they try to

help but they would be like.

“What is the logic behind this Michelle?”

Harri: So the peer support is really valuable?

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, it's really valuable in this case.

And then you don't feel like… you… you can be

more vulnerability because sometime like if someone want to know

like what would be the social benefit, for example, like

at work my company have this benefit, am I allowed

to use it? I want to use it, but am I allowed?

And then if you're like, “Oh, I don't want to

ask my colleagues because…

Harri: Right.

Michelle: I don't want to make them

feel like I'm exploiting the benefit.”

Harri: So you want to make sure that you've understood the

context right?

Michelle: Yeah.

Harri: Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, something like that. So, yeah.

Harri: That's good.

Well, I mean, it's quite clear when I listen to

you that you've known from a very early age that…

what kind of life you want to build.

You wanted to be in tech, you wanted some balance

in your life.

Was there a moment when you realized that you have

reached those goals?

That you’ve built this successful life that combines both innovation and happiness?

Do…Can you recall something that made you realize, “Hey, I

made it.”?

Michelle: Some moment,

I think coming from usually in the end of every

project when you manage to create a solution that solves

certain problem, then yeah, I feel happy and then I

know that is this sudden innovation elements into that.

So I think that is when I realized that yeah,

I can combine innovation to my daily work.

Of course, maybe not I… I… I don't know.

Maybe… maybe not… I don't have any that, I don't have

yet at all very big moment a moment that I feel like really

strong anything.

Maybe it will come later in the future, You never

know.

Harri: In a way, what you said… say actually sounds quite

Finnish, if you ask me, because because I think Finns

are more about the long term and the constant satisfaction

instead of the big wins.

And I think what you said, what you say… sounds

like you're very content and…

Michelle: Actually I'm very ambitious…

Harri: Yeah?

Michelle:… because

I'm not happy with what I got and I always

want to have more.

So that's why I don't see yet the… the moment…

Harri: I see.

Michelle:… because like I… I still want to reach…

Harri: But you see the goals that are still attainable here for

you.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like there's…

there's always room for improvement.

Harri: Absolutely.

Michelle: And there's always potential for more success, so.

Harri: Well, in this podcast we've discussed innovative careers, happy lives,

and the seemingly impossible combination of the two.

What struck me from this discussion, as well as the

previous ones, that maybe these two aren't at odds at all.

They seem to be maybe two sides of the same coin for you.

Michelle, what insights will you take away

from… from this chat we've had?

Michelle: I… I would say, like when I first hear about

the topic, I kind of surprised because I… it didn't occur

to me that way like, you know, like separation innovation

and happiness.

Because for me, that's why I… I think maybe… maybe

just like personality, like my… my personality… my own personality.

I'm more type of like innovation type of person.

So I… I like it.

And then for me, they connected together very well.

I don't see the difference.

Yeah. So yeah.

So then for me, I think I believe that yes,

if someone have any concern related to can they be

success, can it be ambition and then still happy or

can it be innovative and still being happy?

Definitely it's a yes, yeah.

Harri: That's good ways, good words to end it.

Michelle has just proved to us that happiness and innovation

can indeed coexist, at least here in Finland and in

the greater Otaniemi region.

If you want to find out

more about the possibilities available for international talent in Otaniemi,

please visit bit.ly/espootalent(external link, opens in a new window).

And to finalize this talk,

Michelle, do you have any recommendations or tips to people

who want to find a balance between innovation and happiness

in Finland or elsewhere?

Michelle: Yeah.

Harri: What would your advice be?

Michelle: I think you need the right mindset.

And for that, I remember I read the book about the Chrome mindset,

but it's really good.

I like it because when…  when we talk about innovations

which mean expected that you will face a series of

experiments and failures, yes.

And then in this case you need to have the

right mindset, the Chrome mindset to… to embrace those failure

and those ambiguity and then… and then enjoy the process

instead of just way… looking forward to the final result,

but the process is more important for me.

So I think that the… the… the right mindset is

really needed and then if… if we would like to

talk about some specific skill to support the work, especially

for me, I have a business background so no tech.

I learned a lot around the design thinking.

So is not service design.

Usually people had… people tend to miss the two concept

together because they… they relate it together.

But design thinking is again, a mindset, a way to

think and then how you can solve the problem.

Just be open to different scenario and then test and

then you… yeah you… you open up the scenario and

you selecting a couple of selected option and then you

do testing and then you narrow down the resolve and

then you continue to do it like that.

And for me that is the mindset and then the

approach that I applied for not only handling technical issue,

but also like business issue or talking with people or

handle like personal life challenges, yeah.

Harri: Maybe one final question.

If someone has been so convinced by this… this talk

here that they want to build their life of innovation

and happiness in Finland, what you… would your advice to

them be?

How to… How to best get acclimatized?

Michelle: Yeah, I think when… when we talk about what is

the best way to get balance,

so we need to understand balance, which means something in

between.

So don't… don't …don't be too extreme.

Don't take the extreme side.

And then there… there would be sometime you fail to

get it… to be innovation or to get success in

your career.

Sometimes you might fail to be… feel happy.

There's always a challenge, but try to think to the

other side and then stay somewhere in the middle.

And then of course, you might need to juggle a

little bit.

But then yeah, don't be too extremes.

And yeah, like I said, enjoying the process of the

work rather than the result.

Harri: Enjoy the ride.

Michelle: Yes.

Harri: Well said.

Thank you, Michelle.

Very much enjoyed our talk.

Michelle: Thank you.

Outro